Hi melody,

May I first congradulate you on finding this website. You are not alone.

You remind me of myself when I was in my late teens. I too went through times of not being sure of my sexuality. It is hard to know what you are when you have no one to compare to and no one other than heterosexual to talk to. Not to mention society is always pushing the ideals of hetrosexuality, and the struggles with homophobia that we all face. It is not surprising that you find it difficult to be sure.

Important thing is to only do what you feel comfortable with. Don't be pushed to do things you don't want. It is a good idea to talk to people who understand what you are going through.

Here are some useful numbers, keep calling them, they are often engaged, but do keep trying. They are good people to talk to.
http://www.lgls.co.uk/links.htm

http://www.dircon.co.uk/info/support/

I'm on my way out, so I will return to here to try and answer your questions later.
Good luck little Sister. Don't worry we are all here for you. You are not alone.
With love and respect,
Pink Panda

Hi Melody, just wanted to say good to have you in here!

This website and forum is exactly for everything that you have said in your posts, and I'm glad that you found it (wow, word is spreading to Scotland....that is exciting!!!) and are using it as a safe space to explore your identity etc.

I think you asked in another topic what it feels like to meet other chinese lesbian/bisexual/queer/whatever (!) women for the first time....and Pink Panda was spot on, nervous and excited sums it up perfectly! I started this project partly to answer for myself "Am I really the only one?!", and when I first met face to face my first bbcl (yes nod to you Tanga ) it was amazing! This led me to know for definite that this project, website, had to go ahead precisely to answer "I am really the only one?!" for everyone else out there. Also to provide a space for those who want to explore an aspect of themselves that cannot be explored elsewhere in the UK. And happy days there are loads of us out there, and more!

Pink Panda is right, all you can do is what YOU feel comfortable with and what YOU want. My personal philosophy is that life is way too short to live through other people's rules/likes/dislikes/fear, and the only person you owe to live your life the best it can be is YOU.

And don't worry, you ain't burnt out girl, ure just assessing your life and that is always a good thing!

Amyxxx

PS - Whereabouts in Scotland are you? I lived in Glasgow for abit, went up there recently and spotted a chinese lesbian in The Polo Lounge (and no ladeez I didn't go up to her as I was with a 'work' type group, plus I can be chicken like that still, yes even I can still feel the 'fear' when it comes to randomly approaching another chinese lesbian to say hi!)

Hey Melody,


Yeah when I lived in Glasgow I was out in Dels and Polo lounge and the usual suspects abit! Polo Lounge is my fave queer place in Glasgow, ahhh, the memories of going down to the club, sneaking upstairs for a quick kip (before the bar staff woke you up), and then back down to boogie, lol! Was shocked to see that Sadie's is no longer there and has been turned into some sort of horrible euro football/sports bar!!?

No, I lived in Glasgow for a year and abit and in my whole time there I didn't see any other chinese lesbians out on the scene, so it was cool to see that mysterious lady appear in Polo Lounge a few months ago! Goes to show tho, we are all there, chinese 'queer' women do exist....lol, maybe now we're starting to see what was previously invisible.

As for all getting together....please follow to my post on the noticeboard....!!!

Hehe, Amyx

Pink Panda is just my way of saying Chinese lesbian.

The colour pink, has been adopted by gay political activist to sybolise pride and solidarity. It derives from 1930's Hitler's Nazi Germany. Here's a little gay history...

"The Pink Triangle was used by the Nazis to signify homosexuals. Although, homosexuals were only one of the groups targeted for extermination, it is unfortunately, the group that history often excludes. The Pink Triangle defies anyone to deny history.

Concentration camp prisoners were designated into groups by colored inverted triangles. Which set up a social hierarchy among prisoners. A green triangle marked the wearer as a regular criminal.; a red triangle denoted a political prisoner. Two yellow overlapping triangles forming a Star of David denotes Jewish prisoners. The Pink Triangle was for homosexuals. A yellow Star of David under a superimposed Pink Triangle represented Gay Jewish prisoners-- by the social hierarchy, the lowest of all prisoners.

The Pink Triangle was adopted by many Gay rights groups in the 1970s. Because, it draws attention to the oppression and persecution -- then and now.

Although Lesbians were not included in the Paragraph 175, Prohibition of Homosexuality, The Black Triangle was used to designate prisoners with "anti-social" behaviors.

In the 80s, ACT-UP (Aids Coalition To Unleash Power) started using a Pink Triangle that pointed up, to signify an active fight back, rather than a passive resignation to fate. Today, for many, the Pink Triangle represents Pride and Solidarity...Convicted offenders, an estimated 25,000."

http://www.stonewallsociety.com/gaysymb.htm


As for panda, well, it is simply Chinese and it has the black spots refering to the lesbian black triangle and ethnic minority politics. Hence Pink Panda lor!

Hey Melody Coming out to your parents can't be a easy experience for you or anyone else! I should know!! My Mother found out I was gay, and I swear the whole of Essex *where I live* shook! I left home for three years, and it was possibly the best thing that happend to me! After six nearly seven years now my mum is still hopeful that I'll find a Doctor or Lawyer to marry have about 8 babies etc!!! To be frank with you Melody there is no one way of telling your parents, unfortunately it'll have to be down to you of how and when *if you choose to* you tell them. Part of me regrets not telling them when I was ready, but then at least now my mind is at rest that they know and my heart won't beat 1000 times a second when the phone is ringing and its my gf calling! If you are gonna tell them try not expect too much from them cos at the end of the day it can go either way. Just remember that they need just as much time as you did discovering your sexuality if not more. I think maybe for the mean time you have to figure out what is right for you, it sounds like you're not sure yourself. Sexuality is such a massive thing to deal with and can be the most embrassing thing to talk about with family! Just take your time and then YOU will know when you're ready! But make sure you have someone at hand to call for support, its just a good thing to have a friend around when dealing with this kind of situation. Parents like ours you have to remember are from a different generation to us so they probably won't know what to make of it all. Time isn't a great healer of things but its a start (My brain is dead now...)

Melody - just to add my tuppence worth here.

I've only just joined but it sounds like things have moved on somewhat from your first post here. You don't seem so much in doubt of your sexuality now, and mainly seem concerned about parents/relatives, and the boyfriend/marriage pressures.

But if the sexuality issue still worries you - don't let it. Get yourself out there and meeting gay/bisexual women (even though they're predominantly Caucasian here), and see how you feel in that kind of environment (excitement and happiness is a pretty good indication!). Falling in love with another woman is also a sign..! But despite the "it's just a phase" dismissiveness, remember the truth that nothing lasts forever, and stay open to change. At different stages of your life you may have different desires, even though for many of us being "lesbian" is a pretty fixed part of our identity, some aspects may be mutable.

Don't worry about whether you "look the type" (your presence in a lesbian bar may be enough of a giveaway, and these days hopefully most lesbians won't go by looks anymore, although it is true that it is easier to "get spotted" if you're a short-haired butch). Forget about labels - you don't need them to justify yourself to anyone else, and those who want to see just the label aren't worth the effort anyway. You just need to find out for yourself what you want. And in that regard I know some women who consider themselves lesbians, who only fall in love with women, yet can enjoy sex with men on a physical level. Labels can be debated endlessly, your time will be better spent on rather more pleasurable pursuits.

Also don't fall into the trap of just seeing the labels, in turn. People are people, whether they're Chinese, or lesbian, or both. Don't automatically assume that if you meet another Chinese lesbian you're going to get on, still less than that she'll treat you like a long lost sister. You should have a lot in common, of course, but that's not enough - there are other aspects, e.g. class, other values, just plain personality (in)compatibilities, which may mean the differences between you are greater than the commonalities. Just a word of warning there in case you get disappointed. Be careful.

As for people to talk too, I'm sorry your friends mostly seem negative or dismissive. At least you have people here! But I know it's not the same as friends IRL. Again my suggestion is that you meet more people and hopefully make friends who will be more sympathetic and willing to talk - some str8 people are, you know. One of my best friends, who knew me before I came out, is white and even Christian (an active Catholic), and I hardly see her these days but we know we'll be there for each other if necessary, and she was tremendously supportive. Try and get yourself a network of true friends who want you to be happy.

Finally, my own feelings about coming out to family may be different from other people's. Information is an interesting thing - it can go round the world in an instant, exactly in the same form, or be distorted in passing. (Chinese whispers, hah!) But my main point is that once the genie is out of the bottle, you can't put it back in. Once your family know, they know - you just can't make them forget it afterwards, however much you may want them to. So I would make sure of the ramifications before I told them, or even hinted. I'm glad you don't think yours would disown you, but I have known of families (not necessarily Chinese, admittedly) where that has happened, or where the reaction, at least initially, has been far worse than originally expected. Conversely there have been cases where the family have been surprisingly supportive. But only you know what your family are like, and you (and perhaps other close family members) are the best judge as to how they will react. You seem to have conflicting feelings about it - the fear of bitchy relatives, yet your leaving gay mags around (are you sure they haven't noticed? Maybe they have picked it up - you do sound like you've been rather obvious! - but just want to avoid the issues?)

In my case I am now pretty sure my parents know, though I have never told them, but we just don't talk about it; they stopped asking about boyfriends a few years ago, and my mother at least often says to send her love to my "flatmate" when we speak on the phone. It is far easier for them not to know officially. And from a compassionate viewpoint, thinking of their feelings - I want to spare them. They're getting on, and I believe they will be happier with things not being out in the open, where they have to face the issues head on. But that's me, and my own family - I'm not actually that close to them anyway, in many ways I'm not stereotypically Chinese at all. You need to work out what's best for your own situation.

Good luck.

Thanks Saier for ur words! I get what ur saying...hmm... I dont doubt my sexuality so much these days because a recent event showed me how easy it is to "change" sexuality - I mean, sexuality is definitely there for me, whether it is bi/gay is seemingly more fluid. I found out that all i need to do is say i am gay and people who hear it will automatically believe it and so on - oh, I dont know, but Im definitley less agitated by it. Becoming more carefree about everything.

Do you think I havent tried early on to meet gay/bi/open-minded friends??? Of course I have! I am not entirely without gay friends, just not a massive social circle of them all - which i would like! When i first realised that my sexuality was anything but straight, i went about trying to sort things out, set up support for myself, go to peer groups etc. And do you know what I found? What I was "greeted" with??? lets just say, we did not get on like a house on fire or hardly even a little spark. I didnt agree with most things they said and most definitely stuck out like a sore thumb with Chinese skin, long hair, make up and skirt - the whole shebang, amongst all trouser sporting coooooool butch/ish dykes. we had next to nothing in common other than a liking of women - if it wasnt a support group, i doubt I would ever be in the same room with these people. I felt so pushed out! then I decided to play their game and dress boyishly, sleeked my hair back, put on the jeans and tank top and suddenly I was dish of the day. It was amusing to see the difference in reaction but it was also alienating of all feelings. S'pose i was too young and too naive - i did feel that the gay community should welcome anyone who is gay/bi with open arms - but now i know it not necessary the case (tho i make it MY point to make it the case with others). And that goes with gay Chinese women, too - as u said, which to an extent, scares me. Call me an idealist, but why cant everyone just love everyone?! Life would be so much sweeter that way!

Oh, I definitely dont look "the type", though I can if I wanted to. If anything, tho, I look more straight than gay! In another post in NoticeBoard section, i saw that pic of some of u guys and i swear, i look nothing like those in the pic! Which brings me to ask, How does everyone look like here?!

As for labels, it is not that I particulary want to label myself but society needs it and I live in this society and I dont really mind, just that it can be a bit of a pain in the ass at times when ppl ask and i stutter for an answer, therefore I need a label, so to speak.

Oh, dont get me wrong about leaving gay mags about - it is not my attempt to hint to my parents about being gay - just that I have a bit of a lazy streak at times - but it just surprises me they havent picked it up. I am not that typically Chinese, either, generally. Well, actually, I am, but I have also a massive chunk of western idealogy/lifestyle incorporated, too.

In terms of my growing sexuality, it is my priority to get some gay social circle going and to learn more about the gay/les community locally and internationally (I suck at lesbian politics). One thing is for sure, though, all this takes a lot of energy and guts - sometimes things are on a high, and sometimes things slump badly; certain days i am sure of my sexuality, others less so etc. It would be nice to feel naturally comfortable in one's skin without the unneccesary hassle of coming out, labelling, peer pressure, amongst all things. U gotta agree there??!!

But thanks for helping out and if you can continue to share, it would mean alot to me, especially when that feeling of being alone hits home hard.

I'm glad you're happier and more comfortable with it all now. It can take some time to adjust.

I'm sorry you had that experience, but I have to say it's not uncommon. Often I feel the gay/lesbian world is even narrower-minded than the world at large. Possibly it's because it's a smaller community, often under attack, and therefore instinctively quite defensive. Whatever the reason, the norms and conventions, the stereotypes and prejudices, which exist in the lesbian community can be as rigid as those which you find in society generally (if not even more rigid and narrow). Looking non-white doesn't help either, of course.

Sadly, one of them is "You must look like the stereotype or you aren't a "real" lesbian". People can be so judgemental and may dismiss you just based on your looks, although of course that's not exclusive to the lesbian scene. When I first came out, most women looked askance at me because I would sometimes turn up from work in office gear as I couldn't be bothered to go and get changed first. I had long hair which I refused to cut purely for vanity's sake (short hair has never suited me) - laziness and vanity win out over conformity every time, in my case! I think that people are more open in London, these days, and you get a whole mixture of types (though sometimes they still won't let femmes into gay/lesbian clubs without "proof" of some kind )

All I can say is, if you have to face those prejudices and you overcome them, if you still manage to stake out your own place (however small) in that "community", then you will have been made stronger, and that at least is something positive you can take from the experience. Don't let them get you down!

"If you can't beat 'em join 'em" is a perfectly valid way of dealing with that situation! It's a shame it's necessary, but so what? Despite having had a dose of the same treatment as you, in London I did manage to find a few good lesbian friends who didn't care that I didn't look (or, frankly, act) stereotypical and for a while I thought that the lesbian community was heaven, that I'd come home, that all lesbians were wonderful (because some of them really did welcome me with open arms - not the Chinese ones, though ). And you know what? Of course I eventually discovered that lesbians are people too - some are ok, some are wonderful, others just aren't very nice people, or they could be but they misunderstand you and think you're not a decent person, etc etc. Same as in any other society, really.

Call me a cynic but if everyone loved everyone, who would they unite together against? Hate can be a stronger bonding force than love. But I digress.

Well, I've said. Non stereotypical. No pics of me though. Remember this is a public forum. Anyone can read it and indeed from the sounds of it even post. I'm not out generally. So no further descriptions of me!

OK I understand, labels can be convenient, of course (eg "lesbian") - as long as they don't become the be all and end all, the tail wagging the dog so to speak (just to mix a metaphor or two!)

Thanks for clarifying. So not trying to hint, but not trying to hide either?

As for typically Chinese, I suspect many of us here aren't. In many ways I'm more Western myself. Except for fooooooooood!!! And certain values/attitudes I suspect are virtually genetic for the Chinese...

Sounds like a good priority to me. But don't worry about the politics too much, it's not your duty to become au fait with the ins and outs of lesbian/feminist ideology, believe me! Only if you're really interested. Some people think you're not a "real" lesbian if you don't fit that particular stereotype (you can see it still smarts, in my case, can't you?) but ignore them, they're not worth it. You form your own view, think for yourself, don't do something because you think you're supposed to or others tell you you're supposed to - only because you feel you need to or want to.

And good luck. You're not alone.

Oh what bad luck. Back button no good? Sometimes if I'm doing a long post I'll write it in Notepad (or a blank email message) and save it occasionally, just in case, then paste it from there. (Hotmail does that to me too).

Look forward to your post as & when you have the energy to reconstruct it.

ah, i dont know what happened - it was all typed, i clicked send then it said error. and now outside is raining and looks like it is gonna thunder and i have a driving lesson soon.. uh.. see the papers?? me will be in tomorrow! reconstruction of reply will have to wait alittle since my energy is being diverted to fixing my half-done room and driving - which i hate, cos i want to drive without an instructor, legally. that motorway is taunting me!!!

Try copying to clipboard before you click Add Reply the next time you do a long post, just in case a problem crops up again, then at least you can rescue the situation.

Look forward to hearing your further thoughts when you can muster the time and energy again. Good luck with the driving lessons.

I typed you a reply and the same thing happened. i think it cant handle longer replies so im gonna post short and simple.. I know you said use notpad then copy and paste but its just...uh... this is technology!!! it should work by itself, no extra aid!! anyhoo......... *chill pill taken* ahhhhhhh...

My main point basically is... why should people who face hostility as it is for being gay, bi, transgendered, have to face hostility from the very community that should support them? Why must the community be a dog-eat-dog environment - cliquey, bitchy, back-stabby place when it should be united? Why must it treat different people like the way some homophobics would? You'd think that facing such a pressure that withing the community, the pressure would be eased. Plus, why if? If the individual can overcome it, if s/he can stand his/her place, if they can survive... what IF that person can't? I know I am a strong person - I have strong values and strong beliefs and I know i will stand up for them appropriately, but strong person or not, i feel the pressure. I sometimes feel like caving in. So, if a strong person can crumble even for a moment, then what becomes for the less willful ones?? You know it is easy - easy to let everything go once you feel youve reached the end of your travel, be it the case or not...

...sometimes, when it hits you really hard, you are emotionally knocked out... that numb feeling you "feel" - that is it... emotionally dead for that while. And to think some never recover. All because of rules and rules... other people's rules. Other people's rules, which nobody really wants to live by but nobody says anything because theyre all too scared to get "outcasted" of the group. Nobody makes a hobby of being THAT black sheep OVER THERE!!! Well, not wittingly, anyway, heh. But you know, seriously, sometimes, it really hurts...

...well, actually, I shouldve said that last sentence in past tense. I used to get really fucked up about that (can swear words be used on this forum, ames??) - when I was a teen. You know, the butch femme thing. Now, it doesnt seem so bad. There is a better mix - I thank Sex and the City for that!!!! But it's still true about the more butch one looks, the more "visible" one's lesbian-ness is believed. Ah, thinking back, I shouldve won an Oscar for my styling-prodigy-ness... from femme to butch overnight, even if it was just for a little while to see the reaction.. ooh yeah, i did the whole gothy thing, too... so i wasnt just femme, I was a gothy fem, plus abit of glam, kitsch, punk... now that I am reflecting..., maybe I was asking for it...